Please Tell Me More...

I've decided to respond to these comments in a post and plan to do the same with similar comments in future. If I have time, I may do this with all anonymous and cranky comments in the future. However, I'm still moderating the comments and all the rules in the comment form still apply. Normal commenters are still safe from trolls and are welcome to have open discussions. 

So trolls, you have been warned. Comment at risk of being made an example and given a nickname you'll probably hate.

Dear Warmly, my own personal troll of the week,

(Since no name was provided, I dub you Warmly, after the convivial valediction in your comments.)

Thank you for providing several perfectly, articulated examples of trolling. Seriously, that was grotesquely impressive. In the course of a few hours, I think you managed to commit every one of the things that I find disturbing.

I’ll be honest: it is hard for me to see this from your point of view. I found your tone to be very accusatory, invalidating, and at times, downright bonkers. I’m going to try to address some of your points but, it’s hard to know where to start.

First, what right do you have to be so upset with me? I’m not talking about you, in fact, I’m writing about very personal issues and hurts in my life. I have been personally injured by the patriarchy movement and I don’t want others to experience the pain of legalism and false teaching. That’s why I work on this blog. Maybe you don’t agree with that but I think you could respect it. I’ll admit it, my writing isn’t perfect―I openly admit that it’s always a work in progress. Still, that does not give you the right to act in this manner.

Of Trolls and Hatemail

You wrote, “it's impossible for you to know their hearts and by slandering them with your one-sided research is childish and ungodly.” I never claim to know the hearts of these leaders/teachers nor judge their faith/salvation. However, I can see their fruit and I will point it out when I can clearly see that it is rotten. (Matt 7:15-20)

“It's just plain wrong for you to be saying most of what's on this blog; you have no right, so quit whining when others criticize you and buck up if your going to continue your pharisaical rantings. [sic].” To quote you again, “This is a free country and conservative Christians ought to be given the same right to living as they believe God is directing them.” I am a conservative Christian and I believe God has called me to write on these matters. Why will you not give me the same rights you claim for yourself? Are you given the right to decide who can speak up and who can’t?

“If you're a Christian, as you state,” It is impossible for you to know my heart just as I cannot see the hearts of the leaders in the patriarchy movement.

You wrote, “people…don't need a professional research assistant to do it for them.” I disagree… and you took my meaning out of context. Busy homeschool moms and dads don’t always have time to pull all the pieces together and do the research required to present a wider picture. I compile the information and provide background. Yes, I include my own analysis but I encourage people to think critically about all the information presented. My words were never meant to suggest that I think people cannot find these things or interpret them on their own. I know nearly everyone could find all the information but some people simply do not have the time to do so. Plus, if these leaders continue to post things and then take them down, it is important that someone holds them accountable by saving the information.

"I feel sorry for you, Ingrid. You must be miserable; I'll be praying for you." How touching! Please refrain from praying the incendiary Psalms down on my head.

Learning to Fly

“You're grossly mistaken, Ingrid. Unless someone has specifically explained to you that that is the reason they ask you how you're doing with your sister's marriage, you should not make premature assumptions (which are extremely biased, I might add) as to what people mean by their questions. Now, I'm no expert on reading peoples' minds as you seem to qualify yourself; so this is my human opinion….” I find it intensely amusing and weird that you believe yourself qualified to not only read my mind, but also explain how I was wrong in interpreting a personal experience/conversation. Were you there? Did you see and hear the conversation? Did you examine the non-verbals and the feedback? What did the kinesics show you? Tell me more about your “human opinion” of something that happened to me since I clearly can’t interpret conversations without your help.

"Think about it: you and your sisters are probably really close; one of you is getting married; can't you put two and two together and realize that most of the time a sister's sister is marrying the other sister is, excited, yes! But also a bit saddened?" Oh, now you're telling me how I should feel! Thanks so much!

"Maybe I'm wrong and your relationship with your sisters is not a very good one, so perhaps you instinctively knew that there were unspoken, hidden meanings behind their questions after all." Nope. My sister and I have a good relationship. But even if we didn't, I doubt my friends would try to pry into it.

“But I don't think that is a good topic to be covering here if it's your own personal relationship and trying to apply it to other unmarried young women is unfair.” Your sentence structure makes this hard to read but again, I find it amusing that you’re telling me not to write about my personal experiences (which, as any writer will explain to you, is the best source of all) and that I have nothing in common with other young women. Wow. You must know so much about me.

“Then, you go on to describe and critique what these single girls are THINKING. Goodness! You must be a mind reader! Or, perhaps you've spoken with girls who tell you these things, and even in that case, why are you trying to put all of us single girls in a box and assume that we all have the same problem?” *sigh* Damned if I do and damned if I don’t. Let me just say that I used my own thoughts and struggles for this article and wrote to help other girls like me. If none of it applies to you, then don’t put yourself in that box and don’t read about my experience.

“Honestly, Ingrid, when I read your posts I only need to read through two paragraphs to write an entire article on.” It’s probably a good idea to read each article in it’s entirety before writing a rebuttal. But if you don’t want to do that, you could stop reading them altogether.

“Have you EVER considered doing something "honest and true" with your life? ... You have grown a deep, deep root of bitterness in your heart, Ingrid, and trying to find comfort in nit-picking other people's personal decisions as to how they dress, live and love is never going to make you feel better.” Since you don’t actually know me and all the different facets of my life, I think you should stop before you embarrass yourself. And then you go on to describe and critique what I'm THINKING. Goodness! You must be a mind reader! Sound familiar? It works both ways you know.

“First of all, Ingrid, why do you so readily assume that girls in conservative Christian homes live and breathe only for the goal of marriage?” Because it is such a clear focus on blogs, in books, and in the conferences that these families read/attend. There’s a whole book titled “Before you meet Prince Charming” and discussions by the Botkins of “How to occupy ‘till he comes.” Why did Anna Sofia Botkin write an entire article about her issues with turning 25 and not being married? (Maybe she shouldn’t write about her singleness and try to apply it to other girls? Isn’t it unfair of her to try to apply her struggles to others? :-D You see, Warmly, it again works both ways.) And if marriage isn’t the goal, why in heck are all of you preparing to be “helpmeets?” If you never get married, how do you justify all this training to be a “helpmeet?” Spending your whole life serving your father is not in the Bible, it's just not there and those who believe it is are taking Scripture wildly out of context.

“But where do you get the idea that if we never marry we think our life to be worthless (maybe these are your thoughts and you feel that way)?” Haha. No. I love not being married, it gives me freedom to travel the world and write all the time. But I wouldn’t mind getting married someday if the right guy asked me.

“From my perspective within a loving, conservative Christian home (not fundie, not part of a Patriarchy "Movement", not bewitched), life is about serving, loving and ultimately glorifying God in everything we do, say and think. Do you not agree? It's not about marriage.” Yes, I do agree. I’m glad you have this perspective.

“So when you see a 30-something single woman joyfully serving and living with her family, stop to think: maybe, just maybe she is doing God's (not Ingrid's) will. Maybe God has other plans for her than marriage, or He's using her in other ways before marriage and she's passionate about those things. Maybe, just maybe, Ingrid, God's right and you're wrong...just this once.” I’m sorry but I would probably stop and feel sorry for any woman who is 30+, single, without a self-supporting job, and living with her parents.  Maybe, just maybe she is living out her father’s will rather than God's? I find this an extremely narrow idea of God’s calling for women and refuse to believe that it is God's will for most of the young women involved in the movement. "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26-27)

“What "system"? Scriptural Christianity should not be considered a ‘system.’” Scriptural Christianity? Really? Where in the Bible does it say that women cannot go to college? Where does it state that they must serve their fathers until marriage? Where is courtship? Where is militant fecundity? Where is the family integrated church? These things are a system. The gospel of Jesus Christ is Scriptural Christianity and it is a relationship, not a list of hoops to jump through and visions of men to fulfill.

“Oh, and you're right- this is a "tricky situation"; for you. Because you can't seem to wrap your mind around the "whys" that girls are choosing to stay with their parents at home until marriage. And if that is the case, you have no say on the subject.” I live with my parents. Mostly to save money and save for travel and my future. However, I will move out eventually, married or not. Is that what you’re asking? It’s nice to know you won’t let me have a say on the subject, but then, I can choose not to listen to you.

“…the only thing that truly cuts it in God's eyes is who we really are; deep down inside, are you really saying these things for Him?” Yes.

“Or does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy to put others down?” No.

“Is your goal to truly help and love conservative Christian girls and their families?” Yes.

“Or are you trying to take revenge on them for past hurts and disappointments?” No.

“It's not your job; let it go.” Yes, actually it is and no, I will not stop. Who are you to tell me God’s will for my life? Do you really think He would tell you and not me? Stop and think: What if God has called me to write these articles? Would that change how you respond to me?

Grace’s Story

I will respond for Grace as she is lately married and also, I don’t want her to have to read your hurtful words right now. I cannot believe how you invalidated her experience. Not cool.

“Grace, I'm sorry that you took godly books meant to be used as guidelines (not law) so legalistically.” Was that meant to be kind? It didn’t sound like it.

“But please don't slander the Biblical wisdom laid out in them.” Biblical wisdom ? Are you crazy? You think these books contain biblical wisdom? Again, show me in the Bible where it talks about courtship and where it explains the concept of emotional purity laid out in these books.

“God wrote the Bible; not you. So no matter what went wrong in your thinking, God's always right.” What does this even mean? Grace isn’t talking about the Bible but books written by fallible human beings. You do know the authors could be wrong, don’t you? Are you getting these books and the Bible confused or equating them on the same level?

“And those of us who live by His Word are living vibrant lives.” So we didn’t follow the system correctly and that’s why we were so hurt? Ouch. You just completely invalidated this deeply personal experience. Do you go around saying this to other hurt and broken people? Do you think you’re only blessed by God if you do everything right? That sounds like a prosperity gospel. Further, how do you explain Job’s situation?

Have you ever considered the minute possibility that YOU were wrong and not the books/authors? That YOU took things too literally and YOU are the one to blame for your difficulty in conversing with young men?” Certainly, there is a margin for error on Grace’s part… but don’t you think the authors of these books could also have made some mistakes? Do you think they might have overstepped their authority and made up rules not found in scripture? Do you really think giving impressionable fourteen-year-olds these books is a good idea? While I don't like to think of myself or my sister as victims... don't you think it's wrong to blame the victim?

“I think you and your sister must be incapable of taking responsibility for your own actions, thoughts and decisions in the past and are attempting to play the blame-game on Christian authors and single girls who "actually" choose to save their first kisses for marriage and take seriously the amount of influence we have on young men's fight with lust (oh, I do hope you believe Matt. 5:28; otherwise I see how it would be hard for modesty to be an important issue to you).” Wow, that was a long sentence. As for blaming others, we do take responsibility for our own actions. However, those who have set themselves up as teachers are here being held accountable for their words. If they set up stumbling blocks and tie up heavy burdens for others then they are very much accountable for these actions. (Matt 18:6 and 23:4). I think that filling a young person’s head with false teaching is just as bad as dressing immodestly and produces a similar stumbling block. Finally, what’s wrong with you? Just because Grace and I don’t agree with legalistic approaches to relationships doesn’t mean we’ve gone off the deep end and are kissing every guy in sight and dressing immodestly. Not everything in life is extreme and dramatic. To quote my own article, “Please stop acting like a hormonal teenager and realize that there is indeed a middle ground.” In fact, Grace did save her first kiss for the guy she married; she just didn’t make a big production out of it. And I’m still saving mine and I’ve been complimented and thanked many times for my modest apparel. These things are just a part of my life—they don't define me—and I just don’t make a big deal out of them.

Really though, it’s probably not going to do any good that I just refuted your words. You have your opinions about me and frankly, will anything I say change them? All I can say is that “by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not without effect.” (1 Cor. 10) I’m a sinner, saved by grace, and that’s all that matters. Even if I am all that you believe me to be: miserable, bitter, controlling and etc.; God still loves me, accepts me, and will never forsake me. I don’t know what happened to you to cause you to respond to me this way. I’m sorry if you have been the recipient of such words… it’s not an enjoyable experience. Yet, God is greater than any of the storms we face and He will never let us down.

“What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: ‘For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.’ No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.” (Rom 8:31-37)

Ingrid
P.S. Your warmth burns like fire... maybe you should reconsider your valediction in the future.



Of Trolls and Hate Mail

I’ve had this blog for nearly seven years and there have been times when I have been very tempted to stop writing. None of these moments were very recent… in fact, most took place six months to three years ago and that’s why I can talk about them now. To be honest, I’ve received a lot of hate mail from multiple sources (some published, some not) and even several uncomfortable threats because of the things that I’ve challenged on this blog. Honestly, there’s been a few times when I was so scared, I wanted to stop. At times, it’s been really hard to keep blogging. I get the idea that people think I’m some kind of sarcastic nut with a lot of time on my hands (I’m not!)… I’ve had commenter’s question my salvation, I’ve had barrages of 10+ angry comments within an hour, and I’ve been told by complete strangers that I need to repent. It’s crazy! I don’t mind when people ask intelligent questions and politely disagree or want to discuss, heck, I actually like it, but this is wrong on so many levels. It’s not always easy to keep working on this blog. Don’t get me wrong, I like being able to help people and provide resources for those who need them, and I’m not meaning to complain. But I have to be honest and tell you that it’s really hard sometimes. For the record, over the last seven years, I’ve been called: a worker of iniquity, immature, cynical, caustic, angry, deceiving, lying, conniving, “so mean,” lacking in humility and love, bitter in heart, accused of being Jennifer Epstein (that made me laugh actually), and told that I am glorifying satan. I didn’t make any of those up and believe me, there are lots more.

I talk about a lot of upsetting stuff on this blog. Do you honestly think I enjoy this? I used to like Vision Forum and Doug Phillips and Little Bear Wheeler. I read Josh Harris books and thought Emotional Purity was the way to go. But then I learned it was all a lie. And I don’t want anyone else to be deceived. Do you think I like having to write about Kelly Bradrick’s near death experiences or that men in many churches abuse their authority? Because I don’t. It makes me sad. Things aren’t meant to be this way and I can’t believe that the name of Jesus Christ is being used for such evil purposes. I can’t understand how people can act like this in the 21st century. But if I don’t say anything, who will? There’s a lot of sheep out there who can’t seem to think critically about the right things and there are a lot of people, some of them even my friends, who fail to notice important issues and take a stand. Sometimes, I feel like Aragorn in The Fellowship of the Ring when he speaks of his efforts to protect the Northern part of Middle-Earth, “And less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us and countryman give us scornful names. “Strider” I am to one fat man who lives within a day’s march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin if he were not guarded ceaselessly” and sometimes I also feel like Sherlock, “Is it nice not being me? It must be so relaxing.”

Anyway, I’ve been thinking about this lately, because I’ve gotten a lot of comments over the years and read a lot of “woe is me posts” written by leaders in the patriarchy movement. Frankly, I think people should be aware that it is hard to keep up an anti-legalism blog and the tactics resorted to by followers of patriarchy and legalism. Not every follower of patriarchy has been like this, but unfortunately, the majority have been.

So, here’s a list of the things that Patriarchy followers tend to do as they comment on my blog:

1. Question my salvation. This. Makes. Me. So. Mad. Who are you to judge my salvation? I may criticize the teachings and actions of people like Peter Bradrick and Doug Phillips but I will never question their salvation. Only God can see a person’s heart and know where they are with Him. I can jolly well evaluate their teachings, words, and actions, but I can’t see anyone else’s heart. You can evaluate my words and decide you don’t agree with me but that doesn’t give you a right to play god and declare that I’m not a Christian or need to repent. It absolutely disgusts me when this happens. Therefore, I expect that those who consider themselves Christians will treat me with the respect that is owed to another believer. So, don’t be like this…just don’t do it. It weakens your credibility. And if you're saying I'm not a Christian just so you can be mean to me... wow. Like, really, wow. That is some perverted theology there. I can only imagine how you treat non-Christians.

2. Claim to be persecuted or spiritually abused while actually dealing out persecution and spiritual abuse. See #3. This is so annoyingly hypocritical. So it’s okay to be horrible to me and say all kinds of nasty things but when someone so much as questions you, you’re all up in arms? Oh and you should know: people questioning your beliefs is not a form of persecution. It’s perfectly okay to have legitimate questions and concerns and if you’re a Christian, you should have an answer for your faith. However, treating me and other bloggers terribly and then being very sensitive about how you’re treated is just nauseating.

3. Threaten me. Threatening to call my pastor(s), bring me before church councils, take me to court, have me kicked out of my church, or thrown to the lions is not okay. In fact, it was horrible. There have been times when commenters have been so vicious and intrusive that I’ve been afraid of physical harm. Lying awake worrying about knife attacks is not something that I should have to deal with… frankly; it reminds me of the persecutions that the early church faced from the Jewish religious authorities. I should probably note that it wasn’t really the government persecuting the early church, it was another religious organization. Come to think of it, a lot of persecution in the past has come from other religious bodies trying to correct or “save” one another. (Jews/Christians, Catholics/Protestants, Puritans/Quakers, etc.) It’s a pretty ugly past. So knock it off and don’t be like them.

4. Love-bombing. Try to act loving and write things about being kind and loving towards you when they are clearly so angry that they cannot see straight. Maybe it would be better to just say, “I’m feeling very angry with this right now!” instead of “I’m lovingly trying to discuss this with you.” You don’t love me, you really don’t, so don’t try to act as if you do. Why don’t you cool off a bit and find some perspective before you write to me.

5. Patronizing and/or accusing me of gossiping. This happens all the time… commenter’s act like I don’t know what I’m talking about or that I cannot possibly be credible so they have to explain things to me in small words. Look people, I have a college degree in research and I’m really good at it. I use lots of credible sources, check it a half-dozen times, and make sure it’s right. If I’m wrong, I admit it and I’ll correct it. Stop telling me I’m making all of it up and gossiping. All of the information I found is well documented, still available in multiple palaces, and/or posted by the people themselves. If they didn’t want it discussed, they shouldn’t have put it out there.

6. Defend people they don’t know/barely know. This boggles my mind. Why would you defend Doug Phillips, the Botkins, or etc. when you don’t even know them! I’ve had people who know me actually take the side of the person whom they’ve never met and probably never will meet. What is it that makes these distant pastors/teachers more important than someone you’ve known for years? Don’t you have any respect for your friends? Any loyalty that drives you to try to understand my concerns? Haven’t I been there for you? This is just so disappointing. And may I say that the sin of partiality is a very real issue in the church today. (See James 2.)

7. Think that just because they are Christians, their motives are pure and right and therefore, it is okay to harass me. Prefacing scathing comments with “it’s for your own good!” and “I’m writing because I want to lovingly correct you!” does not make them okay. On several occasions, I’ve had barrages of angry comments that were really consistent with stalking and harassment but when this was pointed out, those responsible could not believe that their actions were, in fact, criminal. Being a Christian does not make you above the law and certainly does not exempt you from practicing common decency and respect. If an abusive husband is a Christian, he’s still an abuser and he’s still accountable for his actions. No matter how good you think your motives, you’d better consider your actions from several angles before proceeding. As C.S. Lewis said, "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

8. Enlist other people to help you when you think you’re losing a discussion/argument. Bringing in other random people to yell at me doesn’t help your case at all. And trying to involve my parents (or significant other when he appears) is just silly. I’m an adult and I can take care of my own problems.

9. Don’t take the time to organize their thoughts and end up word vomiting every incoherent, sleep-deprived thought in their head into a comment. I’ve gotten lots of angry comments that were submitted late at night and, from what my stat counter tells me, immediately after reading a post. If you’re upset about something, it’s a good rule of thumb to wait at least one day before commenting. You’ll be more coherent and rested and maybe I’ll actually learn something from you instead of wondering a: why you’re so impulsive and b: if you were drunk, in pms, high on caffeine, or a professional hit-man.

10. Flounce after leaving a scathing comment or conversely, constantly monitoring my blog so you can leave nasty comments on every new post. My stats reveal a lot and I can tell if you come back or don’t come back. Why bother to leave a comment that requires a response if you’re never going to read my response? You might be wrong you know and maybe you should listen to my side, even if just to be polite. Goodness knows, I read every comment I receive, no matter how awful may be. On the flip side, constantly checking my blog so you can critique me is creepy. You’re turning into a stalker so just stop it.

11. Misquote scripture and/or take it out of context in a desperate attempt to validate your beliefs. This happens all the time, to the point that it would be funny if it weren’t so serious. Sometimes I wonder if patriarchy followers even read their bibles because many of the ones who comment do not understand/apply scripture correctly at all.

12. Think that teachers/leaders cannot possibly be questioned. Ever. But then again only certain leaders who have been deemed worthy (mostly due to celebrity status, wealth, and/or number of books/cds sold). Hate to break it to you but Jesus made it clear that it is perfectly acceptable to question religious leaders and hold them accountable. He even called them snakes, hypocrites, and broods of vipers. (Please don’t decide to call me that! :-) I already know I’m vicious and conniving *rolls eyes*) He told us how to judge the teachings of others. Multiple passages in scripture speak of holding teachers to account for their actions and teachings. (1 John 4, James 3, Luke 12:47-49). I take this very seriously because I think that includes me too. Plus, all Christians are supposed to be wary and act as Bereans so my questioning shouldn’t be this big of a shocker to you.

13. Not catching sarcasm and/or completely lacking a sense of humor. I’ve had commenter’s take my jokes and sarcasm seriously. This is usually followed by a very awkward, condescending lecture by comment on their part and hysterical laughter on mine. Seriously people, learn to laugh at yourselves. Life is hard enough already without taking ourselves and our lives so darn seriously.

14. Claim and cling to a lofty ideal or vague hurt while dishing out a steaming personal attack. Focus on the problem, not me. Calling me names does not make you seem like a victim to anyone, it just makes you a bully. Clinging to your own faith and idealism while attacking me is also very wrong, not to mention disturbing. As a matter of fact, stay away from personal attacks all-together, it’s not fighting fair and will not accomplish anything. If I’ve hurt you personally, talk to me about it calmly in one coherent e-mail, devoid of threats, patronizing, and the like, and I will be willing to listen.

15. Jump to conclusions/extreme thinking. This ties into #1 and it happens all the time. Why is it that when you point out one fault in a leader, patriarchy followers assume that you’re a horrible, vindictive person? Just because I discuss Peter Bradrick or the Botkin sisters and point out their errors, does not mean I viciously hate them, am scandalously trying to tear them down, ruin their testimony, or blah, blah, blah. (They’re doing a pretty good job of ruining things on their own; I’m just making it more visible.) Sorry to disappoint you but I actually just believe that their teachings are wrong and that this should be pointed out. I’m also very concerned for them and wish that I could help them escape from their controlling influences. Please stop acting like a hormonal teenager and realize that there is indeed a middle ground.

16. Trying to sidetrack me with another issue or little, nit-picky details that don’t matter. This isn’t fighting fair, in fact, it’s called kitchen-sinking in communication terms. You say you’re a Christian, so please act like one and focus on the gospel and the issue at hand.

17. Throw out all logic, reason, and common sense in their desperation to justify their leaders. I got this a lot with my post about Kelly Bradrick. Several commenter’s seemed to think it was okay for Kelly to be emotionally and physically abused as long as it was okay with her. NO! It’s NOT okay! Stockholm Syndrome is a real thing! Abuse is wrong, it has been wrong, and will always be wrong. Your desperate attempt to justify Scott Brown and Peter Bradrick is extremely disappointing and pathetic.

18. Tell me to just contact that person or just go meet with them and it will all be okay. *insert cynical laugh here* Yes, because it’s so easy to go out to lunch with Doug Phillips or Kelly Bradrick. Most of these people never respond to e-mails or phone calls that question them, if you can even find an e-mail address or phone number at which to contact them. I wrote to Shelley Noonan nearly two months ago, she isn’t even that high on the ladder, and I still haven’t gotten a response. These people are very insulated and not accessible at all. It’s not that simple. Plus, these teachings are very public and if no one refutes them publicly, how will anyone know they are wrong and/or realize that there are others who do not follow them?

19. An incredible, passionate, furious desire to defend their favorite leader(s) from any and all criticism and questioning. Seriously people, if these leaders were upset with me for calling them out, they would have taken care of it themselves and contacted me directly. It is truly astonishing how sensitive patriarchy followers and even evangelical Christians can be. Quit acting like these people are your “gifted” children and protecting them. They are all adults, with lawyers no doubt, and can take care of themselves. So, save all these defensive instincts for protecting your family and real, close friends. And maybe you should examine why you’re so darn protective and touchy about these people. Perhaps you’re making an idol out of them and that’s what makes you so very sensitive to my criticism of their actions?

Honestly patriarchy followers, you’re a pretty vicious bunch. Who would have known that so much venom lies behind those sweet facades and pretty pictures! I’m not impressed with you. You should be secure and cemented in what you believe, not flying into a mad panic at the slightest bit of questioning. If you’re so secure in your beliefs, why do you lash out like you’re afraid of something? And if someone asks you something that makes you question or makes you mad, why do you flounce? What are you afraid of? Of finding out that the people you admire and/or follow are sinners and maybe even false teachers? Jesus never lets you down… if you’d just focused on Him in the first place, you wouldn’t be so scared, confused, and angry now. Try thinking critically and taking a step back to see things from other people’s perspectives for a change and stop lashing out like a bunch of wounded tigers. A couple years ago, I decided one thing, even if I have been scared sometimes; I’m not going to stop writing. I began this blog to protest the injustices of courtship. That was the main goal. I was personally injured by the courtship movement and I’ve seen the inside of all of it. It’s not the pretty, little picture they try to sell and it doesn’t work all the time. I do have to remind myself to deal with the message and not the messenger. That’s why I’ve edited some posts over the years to remove nitpicky things, though sometimes those lines blur and you have to discuss a few issues that are more personal. There’s a place for standing up for what you believe in but it should still have a sense of decency and respect. And if you don’t like something on my blog, that’s okay. I never expected everyone to agree with me or see things exactly the way I do. My articles are open to discussion but my personal life is not. You can disagree with anything I write but if you’re attacking me personally, save your fingers. I’ll probably post it and I’ll respond if I feel it is worth the fight. If only one thing has come from this, I am more interested in my blog than ever and more determined to keep fighting against rules and formulas and legalism―and arguing for the gospel of Jesus Christ. Honestly, I don’t really mind that I’ve faced name-calling and threats as I’ve pointed out false teachings. It doesn’t worry me anymore and truthfully, I’ve moved on. It’s made me a lot stronger and even more willing to stand up for truth. And be warned, God keeps on giving me the strength to write and thanks to all of you, I have developed a very, very thick skin. So don’t expect me to stop anytime soon.

Ingrid

P.S. Don't think I am the only anti-Patriarchy writer who deals with hate-mail. All of the people I know who have blogs and/or help those caught in Patriarchy movement have endured similar situations. Some have even dealt with lawsuits and far worse attacks than those that I have experienced. We just don't talk about it a lot and we definitely do not mean to complain. 

Controlling the Words

Anyone who reads the blogs of the leaders and celebrities of the Patriarchy movement is aware of their ongoing fascination with the Reformation. From the Reformation 500 to the many Reformation Faires held by Family Integrated Churches across the country, it is clear that the followers of patriarchy adore the Protestant founding fathers. Yet, one of the key points of the Reformation is ignored by the majority of Patriarchy leaders and followers. That is: having the Bible in your own language so that you can read it without the help of anyone else. Yes, you’re probably confused now so let me explain…. To quickly review, in the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church controlled Christianity because the Bible only available in Latin―which was not the common languages of the people. Once the Bible was translated into other languages, the Reformation began to take shape. Why? Because the people could read the Bible for themselves and they realized that many of the traditions found in the Catholic faith were not found in the word of God. In short, they found that their traditions were pure legalism. Now, this is not about bashing Catholics. If anything too much of that goes on in the Protestant church anyway. Still, I think most of us can agree with that when it comes to scripture, understanding the words and their meaning is vital to a growing relationship with Christ. However, do those in the Patriarchy movement truly understand scripture? It is common knowledge that Vision Forum and many of its associates promote the use of the Geneva or King James Bible. Now, there’s nothing wrong with these texts; they’re beautiful, historic, and very important for Biblical studies. However, it seems rather impractical for these translations to be the only ones read or used. For one thing, it seems silly to insist that one must buy a new Bible in order to fit into any group. Moreover, I believe that it is easier to promote false teaching with these versions of scripture because most people, especially tired homeschooling parents, do not have the time to research the full meaning of the words on the page in front of them. I hope it’s clear to everyone that we’re not living in Elizabethan England anymore and quite honestly, the language of the KJV and Geneva Bibles is almost a different language. Some words have nearly ceased to exist while others have completely different meanings. Back in the days when I liked Vision Forum, I read a King James Bible for my daily devotions. While I love the language, in the same way I love Shakespeare, it takes thought and time to understand what the words are saying. When you’re tired and have spent the day working on math equations and reading Dickens, you really just want to be able to soak in the Bible without the linguistic effort it takes to untangle Elizabethan words. Most of the time, I simply could not connect with the King James Bible. Finally, I switched to the NIV. It was wonderful; the Bible truly came alive in modern English and spoke to me in a way it never had before. I thought it was amazing to hear Jesus speak in my own dialect, as if he was speaking directly to me. While I kept and still like my KJV, I just use it for cross-references now. From my own experience, I can see that perhaps using the KJV and/or Geneva Bible alone is a dangerous thing. I’ve studied linguistics and even so, it can be difficult for me to decipher Shakespeare, let alone the KJV. If Doug Phillips or one of his cronies uses the KJV or Geneva Bible alone, he can probably say whatever he wants and twist the scripture to fit his theory. It’s easy to do when no one really understands the words. Do you honestly think anyone will dare admit they don’t adore, let alone understand, the translation of the Bible that Doug Phillips insists that they read? In addition, when we insist on reading only the Elizabethan versions of the Bible, we can make serious errors in understanding it. As Phil Vischer, the creator of Veggie Tales writes in his book Me, Myself and Bob,
“There’s that verse―Proverbs 29:18― “For lack of vision, the people perish.” Ha! I was big on that verse. I’d even been introduced with that verse. “Where there is no revelation, people cast off restraint! Here’s Phil Vischer!” Yet….when we quote Proverbs 29:18, we always quote the King James Version. Check a modern translation like the New International Version and you’ll find the verse reads, “Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint.” What? Why so different? Because the King James Version was completed in the sixteenth century, long before the word vision had become a descriptor of creative brainstorming…. What we have here is a linguistic issue. Proverbs 29:18 has nothing to do with the children of God being “visionary thinkers” and everything to do with the children of God falling into chaos and sin when they ignore what God has revealed to them through his Word.”
Strange that one of the key verses behind Vision Forum is one of the most often misunderstood, isn’t it? Vischer continues,
“But I didn’t seem to be alone in my delusion. Megachurches, megaministries, mega Christian celebrities―we all seemed to be drinking the same cocktail. We were all casting our visions, emblazoning our BHAGs on banners, lapel pin, and PowerPoint presentations. And quite often, as the crowds cheered, we were standing behind entirely inaccurate interpretations of one little verse in Proverbs.” 1
It honestly disturbs me that the Patriarchy crowd is so obsessed with the KJV and Geneva Bibles, to the point of spurning all other translations. What’s wrong with reading the Bible in modern English? I seriously doubt that any of the reformers, especially the likes of John Wycliffe or William Tyndale, would be pleased with anyone clinging to their versions of the Bible and declaring them the only ones to read. They gave their lives, some literally, to translate the Bible into their language and they would expect us to use the Bible in our language. The Bible is a living book, so why must we try to make it a dead one?

Ingrid

1. Vischer, Phil. Me, Myself, and Bob. Nashville TN, Thomas Nelson, Inc. 2006. 240-241

Just Kiss Her Already

"Why don’t you kiss her instead of talking her to death?" — Nosy neighbor to George Bailey, It’s A Wonderful Life.

Recently, I was watching re-runs of the show 19 Kids and Counting which features the large Duggar family. What struck me the most were the episodes about their oldest son Joshua and his fiancée/then wife Anna. They tell their story and why they are saving their first kiss, but then they are allowed to hold hands.... Actually, I mean caress each other's hands. If anyone else saw this they know what I mean. When they were together, Josh and Anna's hands hardly ever parted-- they stroked each other's fingers and wrapped their hands around each other's hands. It was disgusting. It was like they were putting all of their sexual tension into their handholding. I just wanted to push their heads together and make them kiss just so they could stop their horrible caressing.

Several years ago, I was a member of "The Rebelution" forums (which I could devote several posts to in itself). I remember a thread titled "Virgin Lips," in which 200 + girls were all saving their first kiss for their wedding day. Talk about peer pressure! The girls were adamant that it was wrong to kiss before you were married (Hmm… I wonder who they heard that from? Maybe Josh Harris?) and they were all discussing how "romantic it is to save your first kiss" and "it is so pure." I think that many people (Vision Forum and Botkinites included) over-think the issue of kissing! In fact, at the most recent Botkin wedding, after the “conference” was over the bride and groom got to **gasp** share their first… EMBRACE! How horrible is that!?! They seem to assume that if one kisses than they will have more impure thoughts and feelings, and that you shouldn't have any feelings whatsoever until you are married-- and if then. I recently talked to a professional counselor who talks to couples and also single women before they marry and do you know what she said? She said that many Christian couples have issues with intimacy when they first get married, because they are scared or feel guilty about having sex. In fact, many don't really know what to do or what they should feel. For some, it takes many counseling sessions to get the couples to the point that they feel comfortable with intimacy. Hmm... I wonder why!? It seems that there is too much peer pressure on not kissing and so much of a focus on "staying pure" that some couples can't enjoy intimacy. On a different note: I often wonder why there are so many books published for Christians regarding intimacy? It seems kind of strange, like we need a how-to guide.... You sure don't see as many books in non-Christian circles for this subject! I just wish that Christians were not so legalistic about stuff that is not in the Bible... nowhere in the Bible is there any verse saying that you can't kiss before you are married. Not one. I'm tired of Christians making up rules for things that should just come naturally-- like kissing. If a couple really wants to wait for their wedding day to kiss, it should be their own decision, not made for them by family, friends, and books that bully and guilt them into waiting. It's almost like there is an unspoken rule: If you kiss before you are married, you have sinned and you are not really a virgin.

I am not saving my first kiss for my wedding day. I want my first kiss to be in private-- away from relatives and cameras. I do not need it recorded on film for future generations either. (Oh... and engagement should be private too! Not in front of the whole family.) And, for the record, just because a couple kisses does not mean they are going to go sleep together afterwards. As my sister Ingrid pointed out, "Having never been kissed, I cannot draw from personal experience but I can say that kissing seems to be highly over-rated. So over-rated that Christians are encouraging each other to wait until the wedding day to share their first kiss in front of 10-500 people. It must be wonderful if it requires such an audience!..." Oh, and for the record George Bailey kisses Mary before they get married!! :)

~~Grace

Falling off Again

“The world is like a drunken peasant. If you lift him into the saddle on one side, he will fall off again on the other side. One can't help him, no matter how one tries. He wants to be the devil's.” - Martin Luther.1

“I’m choosing to stay at home and joyfully serve my father as God as called me to do. The world tells me that I can go to college and have it all: a career and a family but I know this is a lie. The world hates us for being keepers at home but I know that I am glorifying God.”
“Courtship is the best road to marriage. Through courtship, one does not experience the grief of giving one’s heart away through many casual dating relationships. I’m glad that I will avoid the pitfalls and immorality of the world...”
I read a lot of blogs written by proponents of the patriarchy and stay at home daughters movements. Most of them are written by young women and they’re all the same… or at least, it often feels that way. I actually wrote the two entries above; they refer to a couple of the most discussed topics on these blogs. Do you see the common theme in the entries above? That’s right; they go from one extreme to another.
In the first, the writer assumes that college for women equals balancing career and family. So in one sentence, we’ve moved from simple studying in college to being a career woman putting her children in daycare in order to be in the workforce. Believe it or not, many women actually go to college, marry, and then chose to stay home with their children. That’s what my mother did and that’s what I plan to do if God blesses me with marriage and children. Patriarchy people seem to think that college equals going far from home, partying, and becoming a feminist and a career woman. It doesn’t have to be any of those things. I, as well as many of my friends, live at home and commute to school; we don’t party and our faith is strong. In the same vein, I often see the idea that “the world hates us for being keepers at home” and I always wonder, “Does it really?” From what I see, homemaking is in vogue right now. I meet women everywhere who stay at home with their kids. Many women love babies and cooking and aprons and interior design… they just don’t obsess about these things. I honestly don’t understand where proponents of patriarchy are getting the idea that the world hates homemakers. Still, such comments are a good marketing scheme for selling more copies of Passionate Housewives and So Much More to “encourage” stay at home daughters and housewives in their desperate battle against the world. *rolls eyes*
As for the courtship paragraph, this recurrent jumping from a discussion of courtship to casual dating drives me nuts! So many patriarchy people decide that since the culture casually dates and hooks up, we should all practice courtship and betrothal. In courtship proponent’s minds, there is no middle ground! The examples of dating that they give are always about casual dating. Casual dating is NOT what my parents and many of my friend’s parents did! They had lots of friends, dated very few people, met the right person, dated them (as in going out to eat, hanging out with family, etc.), and then got married young. That’s what most of the young adults in my church do as well. I like to call it purposeful dating. It doesn’t have the pressure of courtship (i.e. on the first “meeting” you’re talking about getting married!) and it allows young people to be friends and then pair off if something develops.
Extremes don’t just belong to proponents of patriarchy… I also see extreme behaviour in people who have left the patriarchy movement. It is easy for them to declare that they don’t want kids or that they will send their kids to public school, or even believe that the government has a right to oversee homeschooling and/or parenting. They see abuse in everything because they have been abused and thus, jump to an extreme. It’s really sad. Unfortunately, it only encourages proponents of patriarchy to continue in their extreme behavior and convinces them that all who are outside of the movement are against them/hate them/etc. I find myself jumping to extremes sometimes too…. I read blog entries about how controlling the men in this movement are and it scares me to the point of praying, “I’m never getting married! What if I end up with some control freak who only cares about himself and beats our kids!!” Then after a moment, that still small voice says, “But, Ingrid, don’t you trust me? There are many kind, caring young men who would be just as offended by these men as you are.” And then I remember how many nice young men I know and I realize that I’m going to an extreme. It’s that pervasive. I always go back to that quote of Luther’s, “The world is like a drunken peasant. If you lift him into the saddle on one side, he will fall off again on the other side. One can't help him, no matter how one tries. He wants to be the devil's.” Just because we have escaped from falling into patriarchy doesn’t mean we should fall off the other side of the proverbial horse. It’s actually letting the patriarchy people win because we’re reacting to the point of being exactly what they thought we’d be if we “rebelled.” So be on your guard and try to be balanced.
Living your life by bounding from one extreme to another isn’t what we were created to do. For the most part, people jump to extremes because they are afraid. Afraid of pain, afraid of losing their faith or God’s (or their family’s) favor, or even afraid of being trapped within a legalistic lifestyle. We’re not to live our lives in fear or as a reaction to someone else’s bad behaviour. We need to trust God and realise that He is in control and He gave us “a spirit of power and love and self-control.”2

“Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise—why destroy yourself? Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool—why die before your time? It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.”
– Ecclesiastes 7: 16-18.

Ingrid

1. Table Talk #630 (probably recorded around 1533), which can be found in volume 54, page 111 of the Luther-Werke, Luther's works. http://ask.metafilter.com/118341/Help-me-track-down-a-quote-from-Martin-Luther
2. 2 Timothy 1:7.